Clayton Christensen: Hi, this is Clay Christensen, and I want to welcome you to a podcast series we call The Disruptive Voice. In this podcast, we explore the theories that are featured in our course here at HBS, building and sustaining a successful enterprise. In each episode, we'll talk to alumni of our course, and others who are trying to put these theories to use in their lives and in their organizations. It's great fun to hear from them, and I hope that you find these conversations inspiring and useful. If you have an idea about a topic or a speaker that you'd like to hear more about, or if you'd like to comment on our work, please reach out to us here at the school.

Katie Zandbergen: Hi, I'm Katie Zandbergen, the community manager here at the Forum for Growth & Innovation. I recently sat down with Efosa Ojomo and Karen Dillon, both of whom are coauthors with Clayton Christensen on the newly released book, The Prosperity Paradox: How Innovation Can Lift Nations Out of Poverty. Efosa is a former student of Clay's, having graduated from Harvard Business School in 2015. He's also co-founder and president of the nonprofit organization Poverty Stops Here and works as a senior research fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute for Disruptive Innovation. Karen spent eight years as editor of the Harvard Business Review and is a frequent Clay collaborator. Currently, she is the editorial director of BanyanGlobal Family Business Advisors.

Katie Zandbergen: My conversation with Efosa and Karen focuses on the creation of prosperity in low income countries. We discussed the critical role of market-creating innovations, finding opportunities in non-consumption, and what can be done to ensure that prosperity is sustained in the longer term. The framework for economic growth based on the entrepreneurship and market-creating innovations that's put forward by Clay, Efosa, and Karen in their new book helps to light the path leading to lasting change in the struggle against global poverty.

Katie Zandbergen: Efosa and Karen, welcome to the podcast. Karen, you and Clay have now collaborated on three books together, How Will You Measure Your Life?, Competing Against Luck, and The Prosperity Paradox. Can you tell us more about the dynamics of your working relationship with Clay? Has it evolved over time, or at this point do you both fall back into well established roles?

Karen Dillon: Well, I like to tell people that working with Clay that closely, collaborating with him is exactly as good as you imagine it will be. He's so brilliant and so easy to talk to and he learns from everybody, so when you are in a room collaborating with him, you are collaborating with him. But I think what he and I would probably both say is I see myself as a proxy for readers, for future readers of our books, so I need to ask him a lot of questions to understand what he's talking about, to understand how it applies, to have a good example of something. I think he would say I'm the student, he's the teacher, but together we create a work product, or a book in this case, that everyone hopefully can read and enjoy.

Katie Zandbergen: Efosa, what's the story behind The Prosperity Paradox? That is, when and how did the idea for the book begin to emerge and what circumstances led to the three of you coming together to write this book?

Efosa Ojomo: Wow. I think the story for the book actually emerged the first time I went into Clay's office for an interview. I thought I was going in for an interview to work with him, and he was like, "Hey, you want to come and let's write this book together?" I was like, "Wow." It's sure the best interview I ever had. But that was when the idea for the book sort of started.

Efosa Ojomo: This journey started for me about 10 years ago, this journey to figuring out a much better way to alleviate poverty and create prosperity for people. I read about a 10-year-old girl who had to wake up every morning at 3:00 AM, and fetch firewood, walk miles and sell so she could fend for her family. I was living in Wisconsin at the time, and I had a full-time job, and that story really just rocked my world. I couldn't quite live my life as if that wasn't happening anymore. I began thinking, "Man, how do I do something about this?"

Efosa Ojomo: Some friends and I came together, we started an organization called Poverty Stops Here shortly after, and that led me to Harvard Business School because I said, "There's got to be a better way to do this," and I thought business was the best way to solve some of these issues. And so I got to HBS and took Clay's course, and it was in Clay's class that, the way he changed how I saw the world and how I saw how things worked really led to some of the ideas that we have in The Prosperity Paradox.

Katie Zandbergen: In taking a deeper dive into The Prosperity Paradox, a great starting point I think is the notion that if we ask the right questions, we may be surprised by answers that come to us that we may not have considered before. For instance, many well-meaning organizations, governments, and individuals have grappled with the question, "How can we eradicate poverty?" In this book, you instead ask the question, "How can we create prosperity?" Can you tell us how looking at poverty through the lens of prosperity creation has opened up new possibilities for addressing the issue, in particular in developing countries?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the most important insights we had while we were writing the book and doing the research is just how differently you approach a problem when you ask different questions. And so the question of, "How can we alleviate poverty?" as important as that question is, it sort of can lead you down a path of executing programs that are well-intended and well-meaning, and they have some impact, but they often don't create this transformational change that we're all looking for.

Efosa Ojomo: Now, when you ask yourself, "How can we create prosperity?" that radically changes how you think about the problem. I mean, executing a solution that maybe doesn't create longterm change, that actually doesn't become part of your selection set because you're like, "That's not going to get us to create prosperity."

Efosa Ojomo: I'll give you a quick example. When I got into this world, just economic development and poverty alleviation, the organization some friends and I started, Poverty Stops Here, we invested in building wells, and we built about five wells because our focus was, "How can we alleviate poverty?" But four of those five wells broke. Now, if you think about that approach, where you're building wells, and ultimately, there's really no mechanism to make them sustainable, versus a very different approach, which is figuring out sustainable ways to create jobs for people so that they can fend for themselves, it really puts you in a very different path. So I think starting out with the right questions, or perhaps very different questions, can actually help.

Katie Zandbergen: You write that prosperity typically begins to take root in an economy when investments are made in a particular type of innovation, specifically in market-creating innovations. In the book you quote Nobel laureate Ron Coase, who said, "Markets don't just appear or happen; markets have to be created." To clarify for our listeners, can you speak to the differences between different types of innovations, such as sustaining innovations, efficiency innovations, and market-creating innovations, and can you also tell us more about this notion of creating new markets?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. This idea that not all innovation is created equal is really at the core of our book, and as we assessed economies, we found that there are three types of innovations. The first is market-creating innovations, and these are innovations that make products simple and affordable so that so many more people in a society can have access to them.

Efosa Ojomo: Now, what we found is, in many prosperous countries today, market-creating innovations serve as the foundation of economic growth and prosperity. An example that many people I'm sure would be familiar with is the proliferation of mobile phones in many low and middle income countries over the past 20 years. The idea of having a mobile phone, a farmer, a shopkeeper, and a rich business person, is actually commonplace now. Everybody has access to a mobile phones and can use a mobile phone because market-creating innovators came in, in many of these countries, and were able to create a market that served people and made it more accessible. That has created immense economic value.

Efosa Ojomo: The second type of innovation are what we call sustaining innovations, and these are innovations that make good products better. They're also very important for an economy. However, they typically don't have the same kind of impact and economic development and economic growth as market-creating innovations. They keep a company vibrant, they keep an economy vibrant, but in terms of how it impacts the economy, the growth and prosperity is sort of marginal when you look at the impact of sustaining innovations. An example would be switching out your old phone for a new phone. If you think about it, the phone company doesn't really have to build a completely new factory, hire many new engineers or salespeople just to make a new version of the phone, but they'll probably sell it for a little bit more money and make a little bit more margin.

Efosa Ojomo: The third type of innovation is what we call efficiency innovations. Also important to keep an economy competitive and an organization competitive, but when you look at the purpose of this type of innovation and the impact it has on the economy, it typically falls in the line of eliminating jobs. They really are not designed to create jobs or to provide robust economic development. One example would be when companies in wealthier countries, for instance, outsource certain jobs. They outsource those jobs to countries with maybe lower labor costs so that they can make significantly more margins and free up cash flows.

Efosa Ojomo: And so when you look at the three types of innovations, each important in its own right, what we found is that an emphasis on market-creating innovations is really where vibrant economic development comes from. When you start to think about organizations that create new markets in circumstances where, historically, there was no market there, you start to find that those organizations not only have to make a product, but they have to figure out how to train people in how to use the product, have to figure out how to distribute the product, have to figure out how to sell the product, service the product, and just create a whole new slew of jobs in an economy, and that, we found, was critical for a robust economic development.

Katie Zandbergen: The Prosperity Paradox encourages us to look for opportunity in struggle, and I think this quote from the book captures that idea well. You wrote, "When we think about the potential in these regions, we do not think about their current GDPs, per capita incomes, or even their level of education, infrastructure, or poverty rate. We think about non-consumption. We think about the daily struggle that hundreds of millions of people in this region face because it is in developing solutions that address these struggles that we can truly create vibrant markets," which is what you were just touching on, Efosa. You emphasize that one attribute that sets market-creating innovators apart is their ability to identify opportunities where there seems to be none. Can you elaborate on some of the clues that would-be innovators should be looking for in terms of finding opportunities in non-consumption?

Karen Dillon: Sure. It's really interesting when you see an innovator who can see something where no one else can see opportunity. Mo Ibrahim, who founded Celtel, the mobile phone company that really started what Efosa was just talking about in Africa, is a great example of that. You see across the continent of Africa, 20, 25 years ago, there were some landline telephones, but very few in relative terms. There were no mobile phones, and a lot of people, a lot of big companies looked at the market and said, "This is a poor country. Who's ever going to be able to afford a mobile phone? They won't even pay for landlines."

Karen Dillon: Well, Ibrahim looked and saw something different. He saw people for whom communicating with a relative in a different town or a village would require a day-long journey, people for whom kind of basics of life required finding all kinds of more stressful, difficult, time-consuming ways of communicating with each other or not communicating at all. So when he thought about building a cell phone network and a cell phone company, he didn't see, "I'm competing with these expensive landlines." He saw, "I'm competing with people having almost no opportunity to stay in touch, or having very difficult means of staying in touch. I'm competing with that. That's a struggle for them, and who doesn't want to make life easier for themselves in that way?"

Karen Dillon: So when he saw the market, he saw a market full of potential consumers, whereas almost all of the major telecom companies in the beginning saw a market they decided, based on the demographics, was too poor to afford mobile telephone. Mo Ibrahim is relaxing on his yacht in Monaco now some place having been right about the market. In non-consumption, in a struggle, he saw opportunity, and that's what is required in market-creating innovations is to see the market differently, see the opportunity differently, and in people's struggle is often a really powerful clue that there's something that they wish they had a solution for but they don't yet, something that is, in a market-creating way, affordable and accessible. That's where your opportunity lies.

Katie Zandbergen: So it's really knowing the local context and to figure out what the struggling moments are.

Karen Dillon: Absolutely.

Efosa Ojomo: What's interesting about what Karen just said is, as we were doing the research for the book, we found out this isn't just a Mo Ibrahim thing. This happened with innovators in prosperous countries today, in Japan, in the United States, and so it was just a fascinating find that this isn't just an African thing or Mo Ibrahim.

Katie Zandbergen: I want to talk about the distinction that you make in the book between push and pull strategies and why this distinction is so important to helping ensure that prosperity is sustained in the longer term. Can you elaborate on this distinction and also give us an example of a successful market-creation innovation that, employing pull strategies, helped to create and, crucially, to sustain prosperity?

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. So Katie, I talked earlier about how when I founded this organization Poverty Stops Here with friends, one of the first things we did was build wells in different communities. That activity that we pursued falls under what we call the push strategy. Now, when we went into poor communities in Nigeria, we saw that they didn't have access to water. We found people on the banks of a river who had had to walk miles to fetch water at the river and wash clothes and so on, and so we thought to ourselves, "The solution, obvious, is build a well." And so where there's no water, in our language, you push a well and that solves the problem. That's what we thought. But months later the well broke down, and there was really no mechanism to get it fixed.

Efosa Ojomo: Well, what we found as we were writing the book and doing research is that idea of you see a problem, no water, you push a well, or you see no schools and you push education or push schools, no healthcare and you push clinics and so on and so forth, without really understanding the mechanism that makes those things sustainable and prosperous, is not a good longterm strategy. That's really what we found, and so we call that the push strategy. It makes sense on the surface, but it often doesn't lead to longterm change.

Efosa Ojomo: Instead, the pull strategy, which is somewhat counterintuitive, is what we sort of propose in the book. I'll give an example of how that plays out. About 30 years ago there were two brothers who looked at the demographics in Nigeria at the time. It was 1988. These two innovators who looked at the demographics in the country, and instead of sort of pushing what many might've pushed onto the country, new roads, new schools, new water wells and so on and so forth, instead of pushing those solutions these two guys looked at the demographics and looked at trends in the country and said, "You know what? We're going to introduce an easy to cook meal for the average Nigerian. We're going to make it accessible. We're going to make it affordable," and they introduced instant noodles.

Efosa Ojomo: At the time, most Nigerians didn't eat noodles. Many of us thought they were worms when they were introduced to the market, but these guys created a new market for noodles, understood the taste of Nigerians. We like spicy and very flavorful food, and so they made the noodles in that way. Fast forward 30 years, this new market that they've created for instant noodles now is worth over a billion dollars, or at least they gross that much in revenues every year. They make over 4.5 billion packs of noodles, and the company is doing exceptionally well, but what's interesting is, when you start to think about all the things that this new market has pulled into the economy, over the past 30 years they've invested about half a billion dollars into the Nigerian economy, they've created over 50,000 jobs in the country, they've invested in education, they've invested in healthcare clinics, they've invested in distribution and logistics companies, factories and infrastructure, from electricity to waste water treatment, and so they've pulled in so many things into the economy that you would sort of think to push onto the economy.

Efosa Ojomo: What's different about the things that this new market has pulled in is it sort of sticks, right? It keeps growing and it sticks versus the wells that I built, which are no longer functioning today. And so that distinction of push/pull is absolutely critical as we think about how we can create economic prosperity for poor countries.

Katie Zandbergen: You mentioned infrastructure and the role that it plays. In thinking more about infrastructure, it's traditionally been defined as the basic physical and organization structures and facilities needed for the operation of a society or enterprise. I found it really interesting that in The Prosperity Paradox you instead define infrastructure as the most efficient mechanism through which a society stores or distributes value. Can you tell our listeners the relevance that seeing infrastructure through this lens has in thinking about market-creating innovations and the creation of sustained prosperity?

Efosa Ojomo: Writing this book and researching it was really fascinating. We learned so much. The concept of infrastructure as something required in order for economic development to happen is actually a relatively new phenomenon, happened in the '50s after a series of papers were written. And so what we had to understand is, what is infrastructure? When does something become an infrastructure? What we found was many of the infrastructures we celebrate today at the onset, when they were sort of at the beginning stages of their life, or at least promoted by entrepreneurs who wanted to move or store their goods, the things they were trying to sell, more efficiently. And so we started to see this interesting relationship between infrastructure and innovation, which is essentially how you create value in society.

Efosa Ojomo: We found out that without the proper practices of innovation, the markets where you can actually innovate in an economy, it's incredibly difficult to build and maintain your infrastructure. One example that struck us was the United States about 150 or so years ago tried to build roads and found out that many of the States that were trying to build roads weren't able to raise enough money to actually build roads, but the minute we had Henry Ford, who created the Model T and created a new market for cars so that the average American could have a car, what we found was that the value, the innovation, the cars, were able to pay for the building and maintenance of American roads.

Efosa Ojomo: And so in a way, you've got the car having to come before the roads. The car has led to the building and maintenance of the roads. Even when you look at the railroads in the U.S., many of them were funded by or built by entrepreneurs who were trying to move things from one place to another. And so we found this really interesting and delicate relationship between innovation and infrastructure that may actually help us understand why many infrastructure projects today in low, middle income countries don't work out.

Katie Zandbergen: When I first read the book, I was surprised by the idea that innovation often precedes the development and sustenance of good institutions. It often precedes regulations. It often precedes anti-corruption programs, and it often precedes infrastructure, as you were saying. So innovation, it seems, is both the starting point and the glue that thereafter helps to ensure longer term prosperity. Can you speak more to the idea of innovation as necessarily preceding so many of the factors that would-be entrepreneurs have traditionally looked to when thinking about different market opportunities for their products or services?

Karen Dillon: I think we have a great example in the book that might illustrate this point really cleanly and clearly, the idea of copyright on music. So for all of our lives and our generation before us, many of us did something we called the mix tape, right? You heard something on the radio or you bought a record, and you created a mix tape of all the songs you like, which was technically illegal copying. You shared it with your friends. You might've made multiple copies, and we all did it. It was once described as the ultimate American art form. We did it for years, and without much hesitancy or guilt, even though the law told us that was clearly illegal, and the record industry spent millions and millions of dollars lobbying against this, and all kinds of scary fines and penalties and warnings and ads. We still all did it. The institutional support for that was there, technically, but the institution hadn't taken hold.

Karen Dillon: Innovation actually overtook those events and made it so that we don't do that anymore. For a long time, people decided to steal streaming, to do all but go into the dark web and stream music and steal stuff. It was the sort of modern version of the mix tape, but ultimately, innovations such as getting your ... What's it called?

Efosa Ojomo: Spotify.

Karen Dillon: Spotify. Spotify, which my kids use, getting music coming to you when you want, how you want, in whatever way you set, even for a fee. That became so much better, more convenient, more affordable. That is what stopped people doing all these crazy dark ways of sharing and stealing music, and the innovation actually became better than the idea of flouting the law. That is a case where the innovation actually preceded us following the institution of not stealing music, and that had to happen before we were going to take it seriously.

Katie Zandbergen: In thinking about business model development in the context of our conversation, you wrote in The Prosperity Paradox: "Market-creating innovations are not simply the products or services themselves. At the core of market-creating innovations is a business model that profitably democratizes an innovation so that many more people, non-consumers who can benefit from using the innovation, can gain access to it." You suggest that when a company cannot depend on suppliers' verifiable and predictable inputs that it should develop an interdependent integrated business model. Can you tell our listeners more about business model development in the context of market-creating innovations?

Efosa Ojomo: Yes. So it's one thing to make a product, and it's another thing to make that product affordable, accessible, so that many more people have access to it. So that's where the business model comes in because making the products is just one part of the business model. Now, what we found is that in many low income countries, low, middle income countries, it's not enough to simply have an organization that makes an inexpensive product. You essentially have to wrap your arms around all the other things that deal with getting that product to your customer.

Efosa Ojomo: And so in many low, middle income countries, electricity or access to power is a problem. Access to distribution is a problem. Access to wastewater treatment is a problem, and so on. So when you look at what innovators do, so Mo Ibrahim's a good example, when you look at what they do, they have to actually wrap their arms around all those other things. Mo Ibrahim, who built Celtel, said if he were doing a telecommunications deal in Europe, he would just go into a conference room, sign a bunch of papers with other business people, and the deal would be done. But when he was building Celtel in Africa, he actually had to build the cell towers. He actually had to use helicopters where there weren't good roads. He had to figure out how to build the underlying infrastructure so that he could get the telecommunications-

Karen Dillon: Materials.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Dillon: Basically, he could build everything he needed to create that infrastructure. In some cases, where there were literally, he was like in warring tribes' territories, he had to figure out how to get there, how to make sure people let him do it. It was really, it was unbelievable.

Efosa Ojomo: Yeah.

Karen Dillon: But that is where he created value. That is not a add water and stir solution or we can find a way to make this product cheaper. We're going to build the entire business model from start to finish, and that's what creates the market. It's an entire market, and it ensures that that company, that entrepreneur, that product or service is integrated into the economy and has the ability to pull jobs, and it's not just the cheapest way we can build it and we'll keep selling it for cheaper and cheaper. That's a race to the bottom. He created a market, and he did all the leg work to do that, but the payoff was enormous.

Efosa Ojomo: Absolutely, and that is also very similar to what Henry Ford had to do. He built Ford gas stations, he built railroads so he could move his cars and get them to people, built glass factories, and so at the time he actually had to build all these things just to get a Model T to someone.

Efosa Ojomo: In chapter six, we write about Sony in Japan. About 60 years ago or so, they made this tape recorder that they thought was going to sell like hotcakes, and they were very excited about it, but they found it wasn't moving off the shelves at all. What the founders of Sony realized is, "For us to actually sell this thing, we have to do a whole lot more than just make the product. We have to do sales, marketing, distribution and so on." And so when organizations understand that they actually have to invest in all these other things in addition to just making the product, then I think that's really what we talk about in building an entire business model that supports market creation.

Karen Dillon: And the business model is profitable, ultimately. That's the point. They figure out how to do all these things so that it will still be profitable and create that market as opposed to just outsourcing every single thing and having to figure out how to pay for it. Their business model makes sense, and that makes the market.

Katie Zandbergen: You stress that prosperity is not an event, but rather it's a process that is sustained by continuous commitment to innovation. You also found that those innovators who had the largest impact did so by creating processes that enabled them to democratize products or services so that many people could access them. Can you reflect on how an organization can make the shift from a focus on its resources to a focus on its processes, and why this shift is crucial for its longer term viability and success?

Karen Dillon: Processes are really the secret sauce. Processes are the thing that cannot be copied by outsiders. You can copy a product, you can copy a service, but you can't necessarily copy how all of the processes that put that together within the company, and so to me processes are the difference between a company building a competitive, sustainable, competitive advantage and one just building a product that others might copy.

Karen Dillon: Amazon's a great example of why processes eat product for lunch. So much of what we don't know from the outside about Amazon is what is really the most valuable thing. They have processes in place to do all kinds of things that we don't see, but make sure that we can all go find what we want, when we want. We know the price is what it is. We see reviews. All of those things have been done internally in a process, and that is where they really add value, and that is very true for a market-creating innovation as well. It is about building those processes that the outside can't necessarily see that helps you make that business model make sense and deliver to your customers. You're solving their struggle. You're creating something through what you do internally in processes.

Efosa Ojomo: It's impossible to create a new market that is successful without focusing on processes. At the onset of most organizations, a lot of the value sort of rests on the resources, on the people, but as you grow you have to create processes that essentially are the step-by-step ways that you've figured out how to use your resources, your cash, your people, your equipment and so on. And so without having processes that emphasize making products simple and affordable so many other people could afford them, it's really impossible to create new markets.

Katie Zandbergen: In the book you write: "As the history of America demonstrates, when we empower the innovators in our communities, they develop the necessary products and services that can pull in other resources that create sustainable, thriving societies." Can you speak a bit more about this notion of empowering innovators? Whose role is that? Is it down to governments? Is it individual entrepreneurs? Is it a community effort? I mean, where does this come from?

Karen Dillon: It's sort of yes to all, but we would say, in what order? That sequencing is the thing that we think is most important, and ultimately, entrepreneurs really are at the start of this, the core of this. Their idea, they're seeing that opportunity. They're seeing the struggle. They're seeing the world differently and starting sort of proof of concept. There is something here, and what they are able to do, really often with no resources, is stunning and amazing, and that's where you see the seeds of economic growth.

Karen Dillon: We do think there's a role for government and policy, all those things in supporting it, but we think the innovation has to come first. There has to be a little green shoot of something is happening here that's exciting, that has all kinds of potential, and the job, the role of government and institutions and infrastructure is to support it, but it starts first with the innovation.

Katie Zandbergen: Can you share some final reflections gleamed from your work on The Prosperity Paradox?

Efosa Ojomo: Well, what I always tell people is, before we wrote this book, I wasn't as hopeful about the prospects of Nigeria, which is the country I'm from, Africa, the continent, and many other poor countries or regions in our world. I wasn't hopeful because it just seemed like so many things had to change. We had to root out corruption, we had to build all our infrastructure. We had to build the institutions that would promote innovation and entrepreneurship and prosperity, and that just seemed like a heavy lift.

Efosa Ojomo: Well, as we researched and wrote this book, and we really began to understand the process of development and how it happens, and as Karen pointed out, the sequence, which is absolutely critical, the sequence of how development happens, how entrepreneurs create a new market and then everyone else sort of comes around it and supports it and creates the policies and institutions and infrastructures, this book really gave me hope for the future. I am more hopeful than I was before we wrote it, and I hope that everybody who picks this book up feels that level of hope and is inspired by many of the cases in the book.

Katie Zandbergen: Karen, any final thoughts for our listeners?

Karen Dillon: Yes. I would just say I share that hope. A part of the reason I decided to work with Efosa and Clay on this book is because my daughter, two daughters, but one of my daughters in high school was taking a class on global leadership and she needed some help finding an interesting speaker to come into her class, and I just vaguely knew what Efosa was working on. I'd passed him in the hallway lots of times, something about innovation that sounded global, connected them, this should be good. I've done my mother duty.

Karen Dillon: But when my daughter came home from school the day that Efosa had come to her class, she was so excited about what he'd talked about. Did I know about what entrepreneurs were creating all over the world in what seemed like impossible circumstances? Did I know how bad things were in America a hundred and some years ago? Seeing the enthusiasm of what was possible through the eyes of my then I think 17-year-old daughter was very exciting to me. It reminded me that fresh eyes, a fresh set of lenses on these problems, is really valuable. So I agree with Efosa. I think the book and the entrepreneurs we interviewed, the innovators we interviewed, give us all kinds of cause for hope, and that's a really good thing.

Katie Zandbergen: Well, thank you both so much for taking the time to sit down with me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Karen Dillon: Thank you so much.

Efosa Ojomo: Thank you, Katie.

Karen Dillon: It was a pleasure.

Efosa Ojomo: It was good to be here. Thank you.

Clayton Christensen: Thank you for listening to us at Disruptive Voice. If you like our show and want to learn more, please visit us at our website or leave us a review on iTunes. Until next time, good luck everybody.