Derek V.: [00:00] Hello and welcome to the Disruptive Voice. As a matter of interest. I think this might be the first podcast that's ever been recorded from Klarman Hall.

Derek V.: [00:09] My name is Derek Van Bever and I'm here today with two very special colleagues and friends. Going by height, I am joined in the studio first by Clay Christensen, the Kim B. Clark professor of Business Administration here at Harvard Business School. And then Chet Huber, the founding president of the On Star business unit at GM and a fellow faculty member here at HBS. Welcome gentlemen.

Clay C.: [00:32] Delighted to be with you.

Chet Huber: [00:33] Great to be here, Derek.

Derek V.: [00:34] Chet and I both teach on Clay's teaching team for the course he developed here at HBS called Building and Sustaining a Successful Enterprise or BSSE. I suspect a lot of our listeners are alumni of the course, and many of you I'm sure are former students of Clay's or Chet's. Now, the course is important because it forms the backdrop for what we wanted to discuss today.

Derek V.: [00:56] We often describe BSSE as a different kind of course here at the school because we try to teach the students to pay attention to theory, to become conscious of the theories that they're using to guide their decisions. We focus them on this because we hold several beliefs. The first is that all of our decisions are based on a theory, whether we know it or not. The second is that all theories are not created equal and finally we believe that the best theories are predictive. They can help us to understand what causes what to happen and why.

Derek V.: [01:30] Clay's theory of disruption is one such framework, but it's only one. We introduced our students to 20 causal theories across the course of a full semester, covering a range of marketing and operations and strategy issues, and our hope is that when they leave here, they'll be able to slip these theories on like lenses to see the world a little more clearly and to gain an edge in decision making.

Derek V.: [01:52] About five years ago, Chet decided to see if he could put what we were teaching into practice and he used the theories of the course. As a blueprint to create his own startup, a company he calls House Setter, what we'll do today is to have Chet share his story with us and have Clay comment, as he wishes on both Chet's plan and his execution.

Derek V.: [02:15] Our hope is that we'll give the entrepreneurs in the audience a real-time case study in some of the kinds of handles you can hold onto as you start your own venture, and some of the questions that still remain.

Derek V.: [02:26] We also hope to help the VCs and investors in our audience to get a better understanding of how to think about startups that are targeting new markets rather than established markets, what some of the uncertainties and risks are and what the reward can be of getting that right. So before we begin a little backstory, you two have known each other for a long time. Clay, when did you first meet? Do you recall?

Clay C.: [02:51] Yep, yep. We met in room nine of Aldrich Hall as members of Section C in 1977. And we've been friends ever since.

Chet Huber: [03:06] Yeah, it was actually the night before Aldrich Hall. We met on the lawn of Baker Library and remember, they had those big placards out there that had all the section letters by them?

Clay C.: [03:17] Yeah, that's right.

Chet Huber: [03:18] That's where we met our section mates. And you were the only guy as tall as the placards were. And so you were not easy to miss the first afternoon that we were on campus.

Clay C.: [03:30] It was a wonderful experience realize that what we could learn from each other that I just never imagined.

Derek V.: [03:39] Chet, I think you tell your students a story about how you were trying to place Clay in terms of his comments in the section.

Chet Huber: [03:47] Yeah, so we have this tradition here that I was not that happy to realize was still here when I got back to teach, which is that 10% of the folks in every class have to essentially get a bad grade, a failing grade. It's not failing, but it feels like failing. And you know, part of the first year's mystery is, am I going to flunk out of this place? It presumably helps the tension and you know, kind of keeps you focused. And so every class you'd go into as a first year, at least I certainly did as an engineer with no business background to speak of, was to try to find ... We had 90 people in a classroom who are the nine stupider people than I was in any of the classes?

Chet Huber: [04:25] And so we'd have a finance class and we'd have marketing and we'd have operations and we'd have statistics and you know, you count up the nine people and maybe the first two or three weeks in you could kind of start to find, okay, there's at least nine worse than me. I'm 10th, so I'm safe. And Clay got disproportionate air time in the classroom because he's big and he would put his hand up and it would cast this huge shadow over his side of the classroom. So, he said a lot of stuff and he would never answer the question. Never.

Chet Huber: [04:54] I mean, the professor would ask a question and Clay would go off into some place where it made more sense to him to talk about it a completely different way. And you'd sit there and you'd go, "Wow, that was either really smart," what he just said, or it wasn't. And so I had him pegged for getting a three in a number of these courses and in fact, as it turns out, they were really smart and we should have listened and we didn't.

Chet Huber: [05:18] And so I left the school way less informed by having thought deeply about Clay's comments because I was dismissing them as just one of the nine and not not the case.

Clay C.: [05:32] But I subsequently had opportunities to see Chet in action as he built On Star. And we built a case, or a series of cases about what Chet did.

Derek V.: [05:47] And you invited him back to speak about his experience and then little by little kind of lured him back into the school, right?

Clay C.: [05:54] That's right. That's right.

Derek V.: [05:55] Yep. That's great. Old friends and wise theories and a new company. Let's get into it. Chet, can you tell us first of all, just to level set what is, House Setter and how did you get the idea to start this company?

Chet Huber: [06:10] Yeah, so the idea came from the fact that I'd retired from General Motors and like most good Midwesterners do when you retire from Michigan, you say, "I'm not going to live in Michigan in February if I don't have to." So, we bought a place in southern Florida and we bought it on the side of Florida where most of the Midwestern folks go, which is the gulf side because I-75 drops you from Detroit down in Fort Myers and Naples.

Chet Huber: [06:33] And so, now I'm an owner of two homes and the first thing I realized is I'm not at both of them at the same time. And so I'm a little nervous about, well, wait a minute, what might be happening in my other house when I'm not there? And was never so much worried about crime or issues about people breaking in. That literally wasn't my prime concern as an engineer.

Chet Huber: [06:56] I was more worried about kind of these universal challenges to vacant properties, which is something can go wrong inside the house. And if they're up north, that means something happens with your furnace, typically. And you get frozen pipes and you have a big problem. And if you're down south, you have problems with anything that can take out your air conditioning system. A lot of power outage issues down south as well. And you end up with a mold farm, you know, literally growing between your walls if you don't have the proper HVAC going on. And so I had this need to kind of feel like I was okay when I wasn't in the place that I wasn't.

Chet Huber: [07:34] And so, I tried for a while as a good engineer to figure out a way to do it and I bought webcams and I bought a little home temperature, humidity thing that you put on your counter and you can read the things.

Chet Huber: [07:48] And I would point the webcam at that. You know, I was making up my own little approach to doing this for myself. And I realized, well I'd have to check in all the time to figure out then what was going on because you know, this thing wasn't going to tell me anything unless I asked it. And then I could never get the webcam to stay in sync with the wireless network in my house. They would always decouple each other and then they wouldn't re-handshake. And that's not good when you're 800 miles away in Michigan and you want it to work in Florida and it's a notoriously dirty power grid in Florida, which means there's a lot of spiky ... It goes off for a couple seconds, it goes back on. Re syncs everything with your Wifi and so it's ... Okay, There's some challenges here with this working. And I just started very frustrated.

Chet Huber: [08:35] And then I was actually playing golf with a couple of my buddies that were down visiting and one of them said something that, "You know, it shouldn't be that hard to solve. You have to be able to figure something out. I mean, it's just literally like On Star, except it's not for airbag deployments. It's for something else." And that sounded so innocent at the time and it sounded so straightforward and so simple and it was like, what a slippery slope. But it kind of made sense.

Chet Huber: [09:03] And I talked to one of the guys that I'd worked with at On Star for over a decade, who was the chief technology officer when we worked together. And I said, "Hey, Walt, what do you think is this, would this be hard to do?" And he said, "Nah, it wouldn't be that hard." And that started the journey, started about five years ago and kind of is where we are today.

Derek V.: [09:25] That's fascinating. So when we teach the On Star case in our course, we talk about how you landed ultimately on the job in our language of peace of mind. How does House Setter, or as you've affectionately named the device Sherlock, provide this peace of mind, how does it work for the techies in our audience?

Chet Huber: [09:45] Yeah, so we bounced into a bunch of our theory. So I'll just start by saying. So these were a bunch of friends of mine from On Star. You know, we were all kind of retired or semi-retired and we kind of wanted to get the band back together. And so, this idea was kind of the ability for us to be able to pull our little team back together and say, how could we solve this?

Chet Huber: [10:04] And at the time I had just started teaching BSSE with Clay and other folks up here and so I was starting to understand the breadth of these frameworks in a completely different way than I did when I actually was getting beat up by them at On Star.

Chet Huber: [10:20] And so I said to my buddies and we said, do we want to start this? I said, "Okay, that's fine, but you literally have to let me use every framework from this course that I'm teaching right now." That's what they did. They laughed, and they patted me on the head and they said, "Sure, whatever." And I said, "No, I need it. I'm serious. When we reach points that we have to make trade offs and think seriously about the direction I want to be able to use these frameworks to inform our decision making."

Chet Huber: [10:47] And so they bought in. They said, "Yeah, let's go do it." And so, you know, we start down this path. From a techie standpoint, I would say we've had to create an interdependent architecture, which is what Sherlock is which House Setter is. It's an M2M device, so in in cellular business, that's machine to machine communication.

Chet Huber: [11:07] That's what On Star was. That's what little Sherlock is and it means that this device has a role to play. It has to sense its environment, and then it creates a relationship with a back office that sends data back and forth, telemetry data back and forth, that allows us to then understand the circumstance remotely and be able to provide some value to the person who has the need for that information.

Chet Huber: [11:32] In the case of On Star, it was my airbag's deployed. I need to get help there immediately. In the case of of House Setter or little Sherlock, it's, hey, the temperature's too high in this house or it's too low. Depending on where you are, whether you're up north or down south, the humidity's too high or too low. The power has gone out in this house, which means that a lot of bad things can happen and so it is sensing those very fundamental but pervasively experienced risks that people have when they're not at home, and so our job to be done that we believed was important was keeping an eye on my house while I'm not there and do it simple and do it inexpensively. And that was our thought.

Derek V.: [12:15] So our listeners can't see it, but I'm looking at is it looks like a dog. It's a figurine, I guess drawn from your own history, your own dog and how does Sherlock connect to the network? How does it work?

Chet Huber: [12:30] Yeah, so. So he's an M2M device, so he runs on cellular connectivity, which is a pretty tricky thing and a pretty complicated thing to pull off. That's part of the interdependence solution, is that he carries his own data transport mechanism built into the service. Most people, when they think about home connectivity kind of devices, they're thinking about wifi. So, you're having to assemble in many ways the the solution by piecing in your own connectivity.

Chet Huber: [12:59] We said, "Hey look, if you're in this circumstance where the house is vacant, you don't want to spend $40 or $50 a month on wifi." That's a drawback of wifi. Wifi has these other challenges with it as well. Like we talked about, you know, if the power goes off and it comes back on, then maybe the wifi doesn't work, but actually even more importantly when the power goes off, you can't understand anything that's going on in a home because your wifi is off. Your internet connectivity doesn't work.

Chet Huber: [13:26] And because Sherlock is completely interdependent as a solution, he operates just fine during a power outage. He's got a lithium polymer battery that lasts for four days. Sadly, I know that because my device was off for four days in Florida last year when Hurricane Irma went right over the top of my house and Sherlock stayed on duty connected to me, telling me through his connection to the Verizon wireless network. Everything that was that I needed to know about the conditions in my home and gave me great peace of mind that the house was actually in reasonably good shape when the power came back on.

Derek V.: [14:04] Fascinating. So the alumni of our course will have recognized in what you just said when you talked about an interdependent architecture. I guess Sherlock is completely self-sufficient. There are no unpredictable dependencies that he's got to rely on. Put him on, in place and as you said, he's on guard.

Chet Huber: [14:23] Very simple UI. Basically, he plugs into the wall and you push one button and his little British voice says, "I'm now on duty," and then you get an email from him at about 45 seconds. It says, "I'm up and going. Everything's fine." That's the entire installation process.

Chet Huber: [14:37] Again, these frameworks have been awesome for us to kind of adopt and use as guideposts for kinda trying to hit the sweet spot of what we believe this job is and we believe this job of keeping an eye on a house while you're not there as an important job, but we think it's really only important if it's easy enough for somebody to adopt so that it's a frictionless solution, very convenient to use and very inexpensive so that there's literally no huge thresholds to adoption.

Clay C.: [15:08] One of the couple of the theories that matter is at the beginning, the only thing you know for certain as you don't know what you need to do. And so we urge our students when they start companies to keep the foot off the brake and figure out where the technical problems are and then figure out ... We are certain that we're not certain about what the customers need. And so we need to follow the theories to get in the market fast and learn what we don't know, adjust it, and try out again and looking back at companies in the BSSE course, I think that's one of the most important theories that we use is that we need to be humble.

Derek V.: [16:08] Clay, we refer to that, of course the alumni will recall that we call that emergent strategy where you keep your humility and your flexibility. Chet has famously said that you only get to call it emergent strategy if you're still surviving at the end. How has emergent strategy intersected with the development of the company?

Chet Huber: [16:28] No, It's an awesome framework and frankly when you live in emergent strategy and you're not certain that's what you're doing, so you don't know what to call it? It's awful. It's awful. I mean, that's what I went through at On Star and these whole cycles of we didn't know what we didn't know, but we honestly weren't even smart enough to frame it that way. And so we would go about our business much like GM would want you to go about your business saying, "Here's my deliberate strategy." And then we would go and fail and then we'd pick ourselves up and look around and people hadn't fired us yet, so we'd try again.

Chet Huber: [16:58] And so we executed this unintentional emergent strategy. So I was at least smart enough having taught the course a couple times by the time we started House Setter to realize, "Hey look, there's things we don't know." Probably some of the more important ones. The earliest ones were could we execute this and hit the simplicity that we were really looking for and hit the price point that we were really looking for?

Chet Huber: [17:20] And because our objective was to fund this ourselves, we really needed to have some sense that we could build a viable profit formula and an economic model. And so some of the earliest things we had to do actually were to kind of come up with this theory of the job, come up with this theory of what the product needed to accomplish. Create a structure of a business model that said this is how it would work.

Chet Huber: [17:43] And we also needed to know how much is this device likely to cost if it's got to do we want it to do? And we wanted to spend any real money, we needed to explore a little bit and do this kind of testing of a couple of critical assumptions and we were able do that ... Actually, it took us a little bit of time because it's not the easiest to have new market disruptive discussions with folks like Verizon. They're not exactly calibrated to understand what we were trying to accomplish and what we needed from them was pretty unique, but we were able to get through those and kind of get comfortable at least that those basis of the unknowns were okay. We could get through those and you know, then basically start to spend the money to actually create a device and an infrastructure to deliver the service.

Derek V.: [18:31] Chet, you just mentioned ... We're several minutes in and you mentioned the D word, if you will. You talked about this being new market disruptive. We talk to our students a lot about how disruptive positioning products are shaped to be sustaining or disruptive. And there are two kinds of disruption as students of Clay's know: low end disruption and new market disruption. How are you shaping Sherlock and how does Sherlock fit in the overall marketplace of alternatives?

Chet Huber: [19:00] Yeah. Our theory of this market was that there was a ton of non-consumption in this job of keep an eye on my house while I'm not there. There's seven to 10 million a day. I mean, it varies based upon how things get categorized, but in that range, seven to 10 million second homes in the United States, most of them are under $200,000. So we picture these mansions on Cape Cod or you know, these crazy places on islands off the coast. And those people have these really intense needs for a lot of surveillance of their assets and protection and security and all the rest of it.

Chet Huber: [19:38] There are also tons and tons and tons of modest properties that line the inland lakes of northern Michigan and tons of modest properties that are kind of a raid across central Florida for retirees in the Carolinas and Arizona. And there's tons of modest cottages and cabins and second homes in ski areas that today, that people that have a concern about their home and have very informal ways of delivering against that job.

Chet Huber: [20:08] So they have a neighbor and they say, "Hey, will you drive by every now and then and make sure my roof's still on my house?" you know? So it's kinda like either hope for the best. Yeah, I'll leave and I'll just put it out on my mind and I'll come back and I'll find what I find or I've got this. Maybe something's looking after this, maybe I'm not. And our sense was a lot of people don't consume a solution because it's too expensive or it's too complicated. There's just not something they can do.

Clay C.: [20:34] One of the concepts that has emerged in the BSSE course is this idea of non-consumption and went, it urges us to do is when we

Clay C.: [20:48] somebody who's using a product, you can predict that there is somebody else who is not yet using the product because it is so complicated and expensive that they're doing something else, but it's the fact that they're not buying a product doesn't mean that there is not consumption there. We're consuming non-consumption and we need to target the next product on a customer for whom the prior product was too complicated and expensive and they become customers by making it affordable and accessible.

Chet Huber: [21:28] That was our theory of how this theory applied to us. Now, we wanted to stay completely away from, you know, kind of this market of home security systems and deeply embedded surveillance systems. It's a crowded market. There are a lot of people up there. It's expensive. You know, it's a pretty tough challenge. It would be a really tough challenge for, I think, a new entrant of our size to be able to come in and do anything that would be unique enough to get traction and not just get hammered by the incumbents. And so that first positioning of is this, what is it and where do we want it to be? Being new market disruption was clearly based upon how do we stay out of the way of people that have way higher aspirations? And frankly, I mean we deliver our service for $5 a month, including its connectivity to the cellular network.

Chet Huber: [22:14] And you know, when you think about the people that are involved in home security systems and any of that kind of business? They can't look at $5 a month and prioritize anything, you know? They wouldn't kind of bend over and pick up the $5 off the floor if it was laying right in front of them. And so, you know, we honestly believe that this positioning, which, you know, part of the positioning opens up a market that can consume this in a really easy and really cost effective way. It also is this barrier to the attractiveness of this category for somebody else to mine it.

Derek V.: [22:48] Clay has baked into our course two big lessons that you've just been kind of pushing up against. One is this notion that it's so hard to target non-consumption when established markets pull on you the way they do. And the other is how hard it is to keep your product low cost when everybody wants you to add the next bell and whistle, what I think you call it eating, the next Thin Mint. How does it feel to live these lessons? How did these lessons present when you're actually living them?

Chet Huber: [23:21] There's tension in every one of them, which is what makes this really interesting. And so, you know, we took great pains to at least early on, be pretty thoughtful about where do we believe this sweet spot is for the job we're trying to accomplish in functionality?

Chet Huber: [23:37] But literally from the first day it's been, "Well, gosh can't it just do this as well? Can't you put a carbon monoxide detector in it? Can't you put a noise sensor in it?," so it can hear broken glass, "Can't you put some kind of a motion sensor so that it can detect somebody in the room?"

Chet Huber: [23:55] And every one of those starts to completely redefine what you're trying to do for your customer. You start to make promises to your customer that your capabilities are going to be robust enough to actually be good at those things and every one of them brings complexity to the customer experience and cost.

Chet Huber: [24:15] And so yeah, everybody's got ideas about the next thing that you ought to do. Particularly, we've started to talk a little bit with some outside financial folks and I gotta to tell you, our framework of good money/bad money that you know, again, I had a view through the lens of General Motors, how to interpret that framework. I've got a completely different view of good money/bad money, and the perverse incentives that are provided by private equity folks and venture capital folks in terms of absolutely pushing you towards obvious markets and attempting to kind of thrust you in the middle of the circumstances where there's already a whole bunch of competition because they can't believe or accept that if people are not served today. There is this thing called non-consumption. There's non-consumption because it must not be real. There must not be anything there, so why not point it in this other direction? And so, the money really wants to point you in places that are anything but disruptive.

Clay C.: [25:20] Chet, one of the things I'm glad we have done in the BSSE course is we've given brand names to concepts and theories and many of these are we can remember them and so disruption has a connotation which is simple, low end, affordable the job to be done. Oh, I gotta do this job. Is there anything I can hire to get the job done? And a purposed brand pops into people's heads when they realize they have a job to do and emergent strategy for Pete's sake, let the theory emerge so that I can get on with life. But we were hoping that our alumni can continue in this pattern of helping each other in the BSSC alumni base so that they can communicate through the theories and brands.

Derek V.: [26:30] Clay, do you have, when you think about good money and bad money in this idea that we get the categories wrong when we categorize funding by source of funding as opposed to what it pushes us to do? Is there a story or a way to lock that in our minds the way that the milkshake or rebar lock the other theories in our minds?

Clay C.: [26:51] Yeah, the mechanism for good money/bad money is at the beginning, the source of the money needs to become big. The provider of the money needs the numbers to be good and so you go back and say, given that they have that, how big that is, you work your way back into, oh my gosh, that means we need to achieve this level and go after these customers and not those, and then you realize that you've just locked yourself in. And it helped me come to the Harvard Business School with Chet in the beginning, because we had money that wasn't very good in a company that we had started and I concluded that there was no way that we could become successful because of the route that the bad money has driven us to be.

Derek V.: [27:54] Chet, where are you today and what are the biggest questions or uncertainties that you're facing as you think about where to take House Setter next?

Chet Huber: [28:04] Yeah, so where we are today, we've got about 500 customers that we've acquired. Arm's length. These aren't our friends and family. We've done essentially no advertising. We've done a couple very, very minor tests. We put a little bit of a print ad in the Naples News near my home in Florida at the end of last season as people were heading north to just see whether or not that the awareness that there was something that you could hire to do this job to be done might stimulate anything.

Chet Huber: [28:34] And we actually have gotten a little bit of PR. What we're living right now is this in between zone of the folks that have adopted our solution, we do a lot of interaction with as you might expect, because we want to learn from them. How are they using it? What are their experiences? Are they satisfied?

Chet Huber: [28:51] We have incredibly high retention rates from these people. They they love the service. We would love to get to the point where word of mouth ends up being a big part of how the volume grows. I mean, you know, what we're trying to appreciate and learn is what is the critical mass that's required to get.

Clay C.: [29:11] How do you get critical?

Chet Huber: [29:13] How do you get critical mass so that that propagation of, "Hey, I've got this thing, it's an awesome solution." We've seen it. We've got a couple of places where it's actually started, which is great. And you know, they tend to be in places where, you know, we've had some earliest adoption so that we've had a little bit of cycle of the repetition of people going through these times where they need something, but that's what we've got to get through right now.

Clay C.: [29:36] Yeah, and in a lot of ways, Chet, what you're saying is we need a theory about how to build brands or how to build scale when you are trying to go in the other direction by keeping it simple and affordable. How do you do one without going against the other? And gosh, I hope that you and our alumni will help us.

Chet Huber: [30:03] Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I think it would be great. This new market, disruptive positioning is awesome. The challenge is, you know, ultimately connecting it with enough people that have the job to be done. So that awareness, so that you start to build the kind of repetitions of value creation through these people's eyes and then are able to take that forward.

Chet Huber: [30:28] And in GM, I mean we jump-started through that because we could essentially just put them in a whole bunch of cars and GM was never shy about spending a lot of money on advertising. And so we were able to kind of short-circuit that new market disruptive hurdle that when you start by overspending, essentially. And it was fine because we got through it and frankly, built that brand position to incredibly valuable place for way less money than traditional car manufacturers spend on almost anything they try to promote.

Chet Huber: [30:59] But in our case, again, we're still self-funded. You know, we're not exactly in a position to say, "Well, we want to go out and start doing massive advertising campaigns to these various places." So finding that way to begin that little, you know, nuclear reaction. How do we start it so that we get to the critical mass and the Geiger counter starts to pop a little bit more than it's popping out would be great.

Derek V.: [31:23] Clay is there ... So Chet and team have built House Setter to this point, using the title of our course, they've built the enterprise. They're now trying to sustain and scale the success of the enterprise. Anything else that jumps out at you that we should either ask for the alumni's help on or that occurs to you as you would advise Chet and team on next steps? What they'll encounter next?

Clay C.: [31:48] Yeah. You know, Chet and I are on the older side of young and I don't think that I or Chet have an instinct for what does an online strategy mean in a world where we were raised in the other direction. And I think that the BSSE alumni can really help us build theories that'll little help Chet and the rest of us.

Derek V.: [32:21] Fascinating, Chet. Any other closing thoughts?

Chet Huber: [32:26] No, it's just been fascinating. I mean, in some ways ... I'm not a researcher, you know, I came to the school ... As Clay mentioned when I first started, um, a long time ago. There's a couple ways I could potentially join the faculty, one of which to try to engage in the kind of frontier movement of the research work or the other was to teach.

Chet Huber: [32:46] And I said, "You know what? I really just want to teach and I'll try to be okay at that, but I'm not going to be a researcher," but I have to say, I honestly feel like I'm living a pretty interesting field research project right now with the application of these frameworks, real time, real life into a market and experiencing the challenges of doing that, the risks.

Chet Huber: [33:11] You know, I wouldn't have thought I would've gotten the same emotional signals sent to whatever parts of my brain process emotional signals that I used to have when I was working at On Star. But they're there, you know? So the reality of this is it's been fun, interesting. But it's drawn me back into the reality of these frameworks, not just in this case setting that's a safe place far away, but I mean literally into something that's right in front of my mind and I have to continue to reprocess and think about. And so it's been fun.

Chet Huber: [33:44] At some point, I hope it turns into something that you know is valuable to the friends of mine that kind of came on the journey with me, because they deserve that. But I also hope it turns into something valuable for folks that might come behind and have their own ideas about how to do stuff like this. Because I mean, this is legitimately an interesting little research project.

Derek V.: [34:03] So for those of our listeners who wondered, how do all these theories fit together or snap together in Chet's memorable phrasing. I hope you've heard in this podcast, how Chet and team have snapped together new market disruptive positioning against a real job to be done. Progress that customers want to make out there.

Derek V.: [34:30] They've built a business model that is interdependent, that is self sufficient to be able to build this new capability. They've followed emergent strategy as they've dealt with twists and turns, including looking for good money from the VC and PE world. And for all of us, we're interested: how do you take that next step in scaling the enterprise using online channels or just building from that disruptive positioning? We'd love to hear your thoughts on that. If any of you wish to write in, you can comment on this podcast and if there's any aspects of Chet's experience that we haven't covered, please feel free to send us any questions you've got. And to Clay and Chet, I want to thank you for being with us today. Thank you, and thanks to all of you.