Derek van Bever: Hi I'm Derek van Bever and you're listening to the Disruptive Voice. I'm here today in the studio with Maria Creixel and Ari Medoff. Maria is a soon to graduate member class of 2019 and Ari is an alum of the HBS class of 2011. Welcome to both of you.

Ari Medoff Thank you.

Maria Creixell Thank you.

Derek van Bever: We wanted to sit down with Maria and Ari before Maria slips away from us and back into the real world, because she recently did an independent project with us that will be of great interest to our listeners who are familiar with Clay's Theory of Jobs-To-Be-Done.

Derek van Bever: I'll let Ari and Maria tell their own stories, but in a nutshell, Maria's project involved conducted a series of confidential interviews on Ari's behalf with employees of his who had recently hired and fired the home healthcare company that Ari leads. That's a little Jobs reference there that will become clearer later.

Derek van Bever: As any employer would be, Ari is interested in gaining insight in to what attracts workers to his company and what might disengage them or cause them to leave. And I think we'll learn across our time together that Maria discovered some useful insights for him.

Derek van Bever: I won't take the time here to go deeply into the background of this theory of jobs to be done. If you're new to this topic you might want to nose around on the forum's website or go out and get Clay's book "Competing Against Luck" which is a terrific introduction to the subject.

Derek van Bever: I guess what's most useful here is to know that by looking through the lens of this theory, we're trying to understand the causal drivers behind consumer decision making. What is the progress that consumers are trying to make in their lives and how can we understand the forces that draw them to our products and services as well as those that push them away?

Derek van Bever: So our hope for today's conversation is that our listeners will learn how to adapt this theory that we teach in relation to product development and market segmentation to understand why people take the jobs that they do and why they sometimes leave them.

Derek van Bever: So let me turn the conversation over to Maria and Ari and let's get in to it.

Derek van Bever: You are both graduates or soon to be of HBS and actually Ari in your case HBS and HKS. A joint degree. Ari you graduated in 2011. Can you tell us your story and how you came to establish your company Arosa?

Ari Medoff Yes. So prior to business school I had been in the private equity world for just over four years and learned a lot of wonderful skills and enjoyed that time, but I'd really missed the entrepreneurial experience that I had had helping to build a company while I was in college. Coming back to school, I knew that I wanted to either start a company or to buy a company.

Ari Medoff That career path was really highlighted for me by a few amazing mentors while I was here at business school. So Jim Sharp. Got to know him while I was in my first year and has continued to be a mentor to me throughout this journey. Then Rick Ruback and Royce Yudkoff I was in their first class, which was actually a half class, and 16 students in my EC year. This idea of searching and buying a small business was really a niche career choice at the time. I think there were three of us out of our class of 940 that went out to do a search, so to see the growth in that career as a possibility and as a path has been really gratifying for me and Professor Ruback, Yudkoff, and Sharp all deserve tremendous credit for building that.

Ari Medoff Interestingly I did not have the opportunity to take Clay Christensen's class, but I did watch a video of one of his lectures while I was a RC and I will never forget the anecdote where he described a company picnic that he hosted, where he saw his employees and his employees' families gathered together. For him it made the connection between his employees having good jobs that they felt good about, that they felt accomplished in, where they could provide for their families and understanding the ripple effects that employment has on families, on community, on civic organizations.

Ari Medoff To me that was a pivotal lecture that I just watched on YouTube or whatever platform and I knew I wanted the leadership responsibility of either being a founder or being a CEO, but coming off of the great recession and the growing inequality, and travels I'd had and experiences I'd had working in Pakistan and going to Cuba and going to Ethiopia several times. It hit home to me that the purpose as to why I wanted to go help lead an organization and take a small company to a large company was to create better jobs.

Ari Medoff Fundamentally that is the journey that I set out on in 2011 when I graduated. I searched for a company. I sent out 20 thousand emails from Georgia to Pennsylvania. I wanted to be within driving distance to my family in North Carolina or my in-laws in Maryland. Industry agnostics, so I looked at an outdoor furniture retailer. I looked at a Mexican salsa company. I looked at a company that did TV production for motorcycle racing. The one that spoke to me in the most meaningful way, the one I thought I had the best opportunity to help transform, was a home healthcare business based in Durham, North Carolina called Nurse Care of North Carolina. In 2012 I was able to make that acquisition a reality and so it's been a wonderful journey these past six and a half years helping to lead that organization.

Derek van Bever: That is terrific. I'm so glad that you remember that story of Clay's that he tells. The punchline for him and for our students is that management is a noble profession because you have the opportunity to touch the lives of so many across so many difference walks of life and that is a very very meaningful insight of his and kind of a mission that we try to live up to here at HBS.

Ari Medoff Yeah.

Derek van Bever: So thank you for that. Maria, congratulations.

Maria Creixell Thank you.

Derek van Bever: The day before your graduation here. Tell us now as you look back on your journey. How did you come to HBS and what are you intending actually to do after graduation?

Maria Creixell Sure. Not too different from Ari. Right before HBS I was also in a private equity firm and like Ari I was missing a little bit of the more entrepreneurial part of it and also the more actually having direct contact with people off of business. That's why, not knowing exactly what sector I wanted to go in to, I wanted definitely to be more in contact with business itself rather than investing. I decided to do my MBA precisely to figure out a little bit what sector I wanted to specialize in to go in to business.

Maria Creixell Already, right before starting at HBS and during my first year at HBS, I decided that sector would be healthcare and social care more broadly. With that double focus of wanting to be more entrepreneurial and also being interested in social care, healthcare, I contacted Jim Sharp actually. That Ari mentioned. Either he put me directly in to contact with Ari or he gave me Ari's email. I cold emailed Ari I think and he was generous enough to give me his time. From then on we started speaking about home care and elderly care. I became extremely passionate about the whole subject.

Maria Creixell That's how throughout my first year and second year, I've been basically networking with different people within healthcare. In the end this has lead me to taking a job in Europe in healthcare and specifically in digital health. It's a company called Babylon Healthcare and what they want to do or their mission is to reduce cost for government insurance companies, and also to give more access to healthcare to more people precisely by reducing cost. They're trying to do this using technology. Using big data and analytics to do that and to basically triage better patients that actually have to go in to hospitals versus patients that don't necessarily have to go in to hospitals. That way driving costs down for the overall healthcare system.

Derek van Bever: Fantastic. Well they are lucky to have you join them. A quick note to alums, when our students reach out to you and try to make contact please write them back immediately. Maria was very impressed with how quickly Ari got back to her.

Maria Creixell Yeah.

Derek van Bever: And it can be the start of a beautiful relationship. Anyway. So Maria, full disclosure, I was lucky enough to be your professor in Clay's course, BSSE, Building and Sustaining a Successful Enterprise. You decided after the course to sign up for an independent project with me and to focus on helping Ari's firm. Can you tell us what the focus of your project was and how you came to decide to spend considerable amount of time in your last semester here working on that?

Maria Creixell Yeah, sure. As I said I had established a relationship with Ari long before my second semester of second year. We had met each other over a year before that. Ari and I we spoke about his business and I many times asked what were the opportunities and challenges within the elderly care sector. Very quickly, through speaking with him and also through just reading about the sector in general, I came to realize that managing workforces was a key thing in this sector and also turnover rates were increasing. It was just something top of mind for everyone in the elderly care space. Ari also pointed out that that was a key challenge that he saw in the sector and that he wanted to learn more about.

Maria Creixell The way he framed it was actually, "I want to understand and know better who my caregivers are." At the time I was taking BSSE with you and so we had just recently learned about Jobs-To-Be-Done and what struck me is that in Ari's case, of course his customers are the senior people that he cares for, but also the caregivers. In Arosa one of the incredible things I think about the company is that the dual mission is one to care for customers, who are the elderly, but two, and equally important, to make caregivers the center stage of the whole company. Both of them in my view are the customers really of this company. For him it was a critical part of all his business model to understand really what caregivers wanted and what they were looking for in the job.

Maria Creixell What I thought about is it would be very interesting, very cool, I thought kind of novel to think about how you would frame the Jobs-To-Be-Done for your workforce rather than for your customers.

Derek van Bever: Yeah. Ari, obviously when Maria reached out and said she might want to do this, you agreed. You said sure. Talk to us about the challenge of caregiver retention in your industry. I think you said that it's actually getting worse.

Ari Medoff It is. Our industry is a growing industry. Demand is growing probably around five percent a year with the aging of the population, with dual income households, so adult children are busier than ever. And 90 percent of seniors want to stay at home and age in place as long as possible. We are the fastest growing major occupation when you look at the department of labor statistics. Home healthcare aids and home healthcare workers, nursing assistants, are the fastest growing category occupation. At the same time, turnover is growing significantly. It has grown from an already hefty 30 to 35 percent when I came in to the business in 2012 and in to the industry in 2012, to six, seven years later, we are pushing up over 80 percent as an industry in terms of turnover.

Ari Medoff Maria mentioned that thinking about workforce management, workforce structure, workforce strategies is a key to our business. It is the key to the business. Our mission it to attract, train, retain, and treasure the best care professionals. I share with every team member at orientation that to me it is analogous to the Winston Churchill quote that courage is the most important virtue, because without courage we cannot consistently practice all the others.

Ari Medoff In the same way, if we can not attract, train, retain, and treasure the best care professionals, we can't do anything else. We can't provide the type of client service we want to provide. We can't provide the career development we want to provide. We can't change the business model so that we can make our services more affordable or different in unique ways to consumers. To me it is the prerequisite upon which everything else we do rests. Our service that we are providing is care to individuals and the people providing that care are the most important people within our organization.

Derek van Bever: As somebody who came out of a business that depends on high retention rates for success, 80 percent turnover is chaos. You're spending your whole time just replacing your workforce constantly.

Ari Medoff It makes it very challenging to train adequately. It makes it hard to, again talking about getting to know one another. If tenure is very short then it is difficult to understand what individuals' motivations are, what's driving them. It's difficult to have the mutual commitment that I think could help any business thrive. We seek to strengthen the ties between ourselves as the employer and our employees in every way we can.

Ari Medoff The other unique thing about our business is that in many ways our clients or our clients' families have joint employment type relationships. Not legally. We are the employer of record, but the amount of time our caregivers are spending with our clients is profound. The intimacy of those relationships. It is someone coming in to your home to provide really personal care to a loved one. It's a tremendous amount of trust. It is a tremendous responsibility. Again, those relationships that form between our caregivers and our clients are very strong, very quickly and so how do we support that? How do we celebrate that? While at the same time wanting to form strong relationships between us as the employer and our caregivers as employees. That's the opportunity and challenge.

Derek van Bever: Yeah. Before we started recording this morning, both Ari and Maria were talking about the incredible complexity of this business. So many things have to go right in order to deliver that high level of service and experience that you're aiming for. Maria, Clay would so affirm your instinct. His point of view expressed many times is when we beach up against a problem that we don't understand it's because we haven't developed a powerful enough theory to explain that problem. Your taking Jobs Theory in to this realm is very very inspired. Could you tell us, how did you structure the project? So you had this framework that we teach in this course. You have Ari's willingness to serve as kind of a test bed for you to take this out for a drive. How did you structure your project.

Maria Creixell Sure. I guess at first I needed to understand what were the processes and the organization around caregivers within the company, because basically if I wanted to understand how to engage better with the workforce I needed to know already what was the infrastructure around the workforce to begin with. First I had conversations and calls with the head of talent care coordinators, so people within the company's offices that have contact and that engage with the caregivers. To understand what were the multiple touch points with the caregivers.

Maria Creixell There's an acquisition part obviously, there's a retention part, and a development part for the caregivers. I wanted to really understand what was the organization ... How was the structure of the organization throughout Arosa. That's the first thing that I did.

Maria Creixell Once I had this, because Arosa is in the end I would say is formed by different brands and different offices, I then kind of structured in my head a diagram of the process flow for a caregiver. The journey for a caregiver even before he or she is hired by Arosa and up until the moment where he is hired and starts his or her first shift. Who do they engage with?

Maria Creixell In parallel to that I was also reading about caregiver engagement and surveys on caregiving. I learned through those surveys that one of the things caregivers most valued or value is communication with office staff. That's one of the key components for their job satisfaction basically.

Maria Creixell Once I had that process diagram and that caregiver journey through Arosa from online application up until the first shift, then I felt that I was more in a position to engage directly with caregivers and to start my Jobs-To-Be-Done interview.

Maria Creixell The second part of my project was precisely to do these Jobs-To-Be-Done interviews. With Ari and also with Arosa's office team members and talent managers, Et cetera. We identified around 15 to 20 caregivers that would be willing to share their experiences with me and that would be willing to spend an hour on the phone with me. Those were a mix of caregivers that had been with Arosa for a long time and also caregivers that had recently joined Arosa and had recently left Arosa. What we were trying to find is people who had been hired for a long time with Arosa in the Jobs-To-Be-Done terminology, people who were recently hired or recently fired Arosa. What we really wanted to understand, and that's the whole theory behind Jobs-To-Be-Done, is what were the causal and motivational factors behind those decisions. That would give us really key to understand what drives caregivers in general in the industry and specifically for Arosa.

Maria Creixell We identified those individuals. I reached out to them. We started the interviews. That's where it was also key to meet and be trained by Bob Moesta on interviewing precisely in a very specific way, which was very different to all the surveys or interviews that I had done ever before. We did those interviews. All along Ari and I shared all information and all the insights.

Maria Creixell The fourth part was that once all these interviews were done, it was to analyze the results of those interviews and again I think learning from Bob was critical in this, because the way we analyze interviews in Jobs-To-Be-Done is very different from any analysis I've done of surveys before. It's a much more analytical way or something that is quite qualitative, because in the end what you are asking about is life decisions and many times this is a very qualitative piece of information that you actually have to try and analyze in a very quantitative way. With all those interviews we categorized ... We were trying to find different types or different categories of caregivers that existed within Arosa.

Maria Creixell We identified basically three categories or three Jobs-To-Be-Done types of caregivers. Those were three distinct types of caregivers within Arosa. That was a little bit of the conclusion of the analysis.

Maria Creixell The end part of the project was to from there try and give Ari suggestions on how, based on that, he could better manage and engage with the workforce. Better acquire, retain, and develop the workforce.

Derek van Bever: So I want to ask you of course about what you discovered around the Jobs-To-Be-Done, but before we get ... And then what Ari took away from the work as well of course, but before we get there you said that doing Jobs interviews was different from interviews you'd done in the past. We hear this a lot from listeners who want to adopt this practice, but don't know where to start. What was different about it? You've done lots of interviews I guess, as part of your prior work before HBS. What was different about these interviews?

Maria Creixell It was different in one of the things I had always heard about interviews is give and open-ended question and try to learn as much as possible. While this is true to a certain extent in Jobs-To-Be-Done interviews, what was very clear as well is that you wanted to make people really think about the moment they took the decision and think both in a rational way, but also in an emotional way.

Maria Creixell You want to try and help people to really remember what they were thinking and feeling the moment they were taking a decision. Many times as human beings we take decisions because we don't even realize that we are taking a decision when we are and so making the journey with the interviewee to that moment is I would say challenging, because it takes time to really hone in and ask the right questions to help that person take the journey back in time. You see while you are speaking with the person you are interviewing that they sometimes that they took decisions for a very different reason than they had always assumed that they were taking decisions.

Maria Creixell That's number one. It can be ... The first time I was taking these interviews, it seemed confusing for the interviewee at certain points. Also much more intrusive, because you are really asking them about motivations that are not necessarily, again not necessarily rational, many times emotional. You are doing quite intrusive interviews, so they also have to be comfortable with you up to a certain extent.

Maria Creixell It also takes a fair bit of flexibility and adaptability, because sometimes you may want ... Many times when you are taking survey interviews you have a hypothesis of why that person took the decision they took or the hypothesis of why something works in a certain way. With Jobs-To-Be-Done interview you have to be very flexible and adaptable to discover that it can be completely the opposite of what you were thinking at the beginning. Basically human decision making is not at all rational many times. You have to flow with that.

Derek van Bever: For our listeners who have been tracking along with the interviews and podcasts that we have created on Jobs-To-Be-Done, what Maria just said is going to sound really familiar. Typically I suppose when somebody would sit for an interview such as Maria was doing, there assumption going in would be, "Well, I guess they're going to ask me about Arosa and how I like my work." It turns out that what she's actually inquiring out is their decision process. How they make decisions and so there is very often the opportunity to learn things about themselves and the progress they're trying to make in their lives, to use a term of art from Jobs, that is surprising to them. You have to be able to go in to these interviews with very open-ended question strategy. As Maria says, you have to be able to roll with what you learn. They have to trust you enough to open up and share insights about themselves that they discover as they are going along.

Derek van Bever: So it sounds like that you did a wonderful Bob Moesta, the milkshake man, who gets a shout-out every time we talk about Jobs. Bob if you're listening or when you're listening to this, sounds like you've got another student graduate of the Moesta school of Jobs interviewing.

Derek van Bever: Anyway. Maria you did these interviews. You and I think Bob helped you analyze them.

Maria Creixell Yup.

Derek van Bever: You found three Jobs, so I guess three segments if you will. Three Job based segments in Arosa's workforce.

Maria Creixell Yeah, absolutely. What we found with Bob and Ari is that there were three distinct categories of Jobs-To-Be-Done. The first one was what we called Arosa is my profession. This is the more engaged caregiver type. They view caregiving as their primary job. Most of them had been doing this for a while. They value their relationship with staff and they also value their relationship with the senior and the senior people that they are helping. What they really want is more hours and to have this as their full-time job. That was he first type.

Maria Creixell The second type was more someone that was doing this not necessarily as their primary job, but more as a way to give back, so the name we gave was my smart way to give back. This is people that are either retired or have this as a side job or that are studying to become a nurse and they are doing this as a part-time thing on the side. This is just their way to give back to community, but they also want either a small salary for it or whatever it may be, but they are just driven by giving back to the elderly people they're working with. It's a much more emotional decision for them and not so much a professional one.

Maria Creixell The third Jobs-To-Be-Done is people that basically want this as an add-on to their already full professional life and this is just one other job that they will be having. They are doing this because they have certain hours in the week that they can still use and they're looking for something to fill it up that will give them extra dollars. People that are viewing this as a job, yes, but just as a fill-in job, not necessarily as their primary job.

Maria Creixell What was interesting for these three categories, once we identified the three of them, was to see the differences between them. The commonalities among them, the difference between them, and how you could better retain them and incentivize them in a different way. Who knows, maybe you don't need to have the three of them in your business. Maybe you do want to have the three of them, but the key for me or the key learning, was that it was very, at least for me, it was very interesting to see that the three of them coexisted within one same business.

Ari Medoff Yeah. Maria the learning that you have provided here for our Job categories I think is tremendously insightful. The three do coexist, but what this framework will allow is for us to identify which of our team members fit in to which bucket and then to develop strategies specifically targeted to each.

Ari Medoff For example, with the first bucket that is Arosa is my employer, these are team members that we need to provide career development ladders for. We need to provide additional training. We need to offer better benefits then we already do an to really understand what are we doing that inspires loyal team commitment, what else do we need to do to be the best in industry employer for those individuals.

Ari Medoff For those who want the smart way to give back, there we need to really understand where each of these individuals are in their lives. How do we make the matches with the clients where those caregivers can feel good about their decision to give back in this way? And understanding, again, how to communicate, how to manage, how to motivate that category is very different than when it is a primary employer, more career focused care professional.

Ari Medoff The third category where we are the secondary, tertiary employer, that is one where I think we will be surprised as we look at the numbers of our team members who fall in to that category. I think that the opportunity for us is to identify which of those team members could be converted into Arosa is my career or Arosa is my primary employer. If we can do that, then I think we'll be separating ourselves from the pack and from the rest of the industry, because without that ability to move people in to that primary bucket then the chance that we ever can invest enough, the chance that we can never have that mutual commitment that our service delivery really depends on is unlikely.

Ari Medoff Again, I think we will always have some bucket, some category of team members who value the flexibility. Again, we are their secondary or tertiary employer, but it can't be too big of a category for us or else we won't have the opportunity to get to know each other in the way that we should and to invest in one another.

Derek van Bever: Can I throw one thing out? I'll bet that if alumni of our course are listening to this podcast you're thinking what I'm thinking, which is if Arosa can figure out how to identify the functional, emotional, and social attributes of the job for the Arosa is my employer, Arosa is my profession segment and what capabilities are necessary to deliver on those attributes and then how to integrate them to provide that perfect experience for that segment of the workforce, then Arosa can come to stand for that proposition in the marketplace. Can be the purpose brand where it's like when you say Arosa you're like, "Oh, right. That's the place for people who want to make this a career."

Ari Medoff If I may on that.

Derek van Bever: Sure.

Ari Medoff Sometimes when we are doing this research and thinking about things from a survey perspective or more academically we take words that sound self-evident, like communication. So when we do the research and look at the top ten reasons that caregivers leave their jobs, it's because of poor communication. What does that actually mean? Does that mean that they wanted a phone call and they got sent an email? Does that mean that they got called at the last minute instead of an hour prior? Does it mean that the person on the other end of the phone didn't know how to pronounce their name? Does it mean that ... What does communication mean? Does it mean they didn't know enough about the client that they were going to? Does it mean that the GPS lead them astray and they were five minutes and they felt badly about that?

Ari Medoff Our opportunity is to unpack along the way what some of these terms mean that we know are important. We know communication is important. We know career development is important. We know training is important. Okay. What does that actually mean? How can we actually move the needle in terms of how people feel and perceive the relationship between us as their employer and them as employee?

Ari Medoff Because otherwise it's just a term on a survey or a term in study. I think it's really digging it to understand what each of those things mean.

Derek van Bever: Ari, Maria is smiling here in our studio and I guarantee you, though you've never met him, Bob Moesta is smiling when you say this, because that fundamental curiosity to unpack terms that people use. What do you mean by good communication? What does that mean to you? It means something very different to all the individuals.

Ari Medoff Right.

Derek van Bever: Maria, as you think about the recommendations that you made in your report, what are some of the things that you would hope that Ari and Arosa take on board? What would be a couple of changes that you think could be meaningful for them?

Maria Creixell Sure. Specifically, in regards to the Jobs-To-Be-Done work that we did together, I think one key thing for success is this is how do you identify quick enough or early enough which caregiver belongs to which type. I think this is more difficult than what it sounds like, because you could imagine it's as easy as already in the online application asking for preferences. What I have discovered through the Jobs-To-Be-Done interviews is how difficult it is to actually unlock or really understand what people's preferences are.

Maria Creixell I think that if Arosa is able to create or design a smart way to categorize caregivers or potential caregivers early enough that would be a tremendous benefit to them. That's for the acquisition process.

Maria Creixell The second part of the suggestions that I think would be key to implement is precisely what Ari was speaking about, which is incentivize people in the right way. Once you have the categories then you really want to give people what they value and retain them in that way. I think that, not necessarily a redesign, but yes thinking in a smart way about retention mechanisms. Arosa is already thinking about this, but really thinking about it in terms of the three different buckets that you have of caregivers is also going to be key.

Maria Creixell The third thing that I think would be very valuable is to do a similar exercise for the customer side. Really trying to understand types. Do the Jobs-To-Be-Done exercise basically on the customer side to be able to actually then match the types of caregivers you have with the types of customers you have, because for caregivers, and Ari said communication is a very big thing, from what I understand it's both communication with Arosa or with the caregiving company but also with the client. And what relationship does caregiver and client, how is their relationship is going to be key to caregiver success and them remaining with the company on the long-term. That matching process is also a key thing.

Derek van Bever: That's great. Let me just ask a closing question of each of you. Maria, you've been through a process that a number of alumni are interested in taking on and learning about, which is how to do these interviews. Do you have any closing advice to people or encouragement to people who are on the threshold of doing their first Jobs interviews? Any words of encouragement for them?

Maria Creixell Sure. I would say encouragement is you learn a lot more than what you think you would at the beginning, again, on people's real preferences and just on the nature of, if their doing this with customers, customers, if their doing this with the workforce, their employees. I think it is just very interesting, even intellectually, it's just a whole different way to understand people.

Maria Creixell Second, I think tremendously valuable for the retention reasons we said. If I think of my prior employers for example, many times they take the view that everyone is motivated by similar things when it is actually not at all the case I don't think. Doing Jobs-To-Be-Done interviews really reveals that it's not the case.

Maria Creixell Encouragement I guess, also the first Jobs-To-Be-Done interview I did had nothing to do with the last one, so it takes a lot of practice. The more you do these types of interviews the better you get at them, as any interview I guess, but this one specifically, because you're as you said before Professor, it's a lot of the person you have in front of you trusting you. You just ... I guess a good thing is you learn how to gain people's trust in a faster way.

Derek van Bever: Amen to all that. And Ari anything our listeners can do for you or any thoughts you're taking away as you take Maria's research on board and continue to run your company?

Ari Medoff The first thing is I would like to thank Maria for really a tremendous project here and to thank Harvard Business School because I view these independent projects as both meaningful both for students and also very much for me as an alum and for our organization. Maria, the experience that you gained and the project that you delivered and the insights you helped me understand have been tremendous, so I want to thank you for that.

Ari Medoff For the broader community of listeners, we are looking to identify one or two team members who really want to spend their lives thinking about how to create better jobs in a highly and really entirely distributed environment. I'm looking for a VP of good jobs and I want team members who share my commitment and our commitment to our mission to attract, train, retain, and treasure the best care professionals. Our seniors deserve it, families need it, and certainty our caregivers, our care professionals they want to feel supported, they want to have good communication, they want career development, and they want to do the best job for the right reasons.

Ari Medoff Our goal at Arosa is to create that platform where we are providing those good jobs and seeing people thrive. Anyone who wants to contact me please do so. It is an exciting journey and these next 20 or 30 years are going to be even more exciting.

Derek van Bever: Thank you Ari and thank you Maria. We will post your contact information on our website and let me just close with a note of appreciation. It makes me so happy on this day before our graduation to return to Clay's ambition that management is a noble profession and that we've got people here in this studio in our graduating and the alumni base and in the world who are determined to make this so and I hope that Clay's theories can help us in that ambition. Thanks to both of you and thank you to all of you listening.

Ari Medoff Thank you.

Maria Creixell Thank you.